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Thursday, July 20, 2017

"What do we do Now and Post RV?" - Peoples Dinar Discussion 7-20-17

Peoples Dinar


What do we do Now and Post RV?


Hopesway: Let's (me and all of those out there who have wisdom to share) (not that I have wisdom but I have learned a few things LOL) talk about what we have learned up until this point:

For some of us we won't be able to do much without a little bit of seed money. That means exchanging one or two 25k notes right off the bat. This also gives us the opportunity to make sure it is really real. Like pinching ourselves. One of the "big" banks will be able to take care of that I am sure.

Once we have some moola in our pockets we can breathe financially. By that time we will of course know the rate. Good. The next step is to find out what to do with the rest of our dinar. Now is the time to contact that CPA etc we have all been advised to have scoped out. I have mine all picked out. I haven't talked to them yet. There is no reason to. It also time to contact the pre-vetted financial adviser we have decided on.

I am adding to this post but wanted to get this started. All you money smart people out there feel free to jump in with good reminders of what should be doing right now, or have prepared by now.

Maybe a list would be the easiest.

Pre - RV

$ - research to find a good

a. CPA

b. financial adviser

c. tax attorney

(but don't contact them until post RV)

How do you research people like that? I started with friends I trusted - other than that hopefully others here will add ideas on this

$ - Make a list of people - with phone numbers - of all you will need to call when it RV's

$ - Make a list of things to do

a. the day it RV's

b. the day after

c. the week of

d. the month of
e. etc etc
$ - Decide what items you NEED to purchase right away - not WANT (that can come later after you have a budget)

POST RV

$ - As soon as it RV's refer to your call list

$ - Go to a bank if you need to exchange a couple of notes for instant money (we will not be calling first unless we hear from reliable sources that we should) (also take plenty of safety precautions which I won't go into here)

$ - Call your CPA, financial adviser and tax attorney (or whomever you have decided is right for you)

I am going to stop right there but here are some random things I have learned or we have talked about.

No one knows how we are going to be taxed. Some optimistically think it will be capital gains. That would be wonderful. We have prepared for a higher rate though. We are figuring about %40 taxes and %10 tithe - so rounded off %50. (We live a no state tax state). If it is less, yahoo for us.

The financial adviser we are going to use (a friend who we have been blessed to discuss this with pre-rv) have given us some things to think about. First - PAY YOUR TAXES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Second - tithe. Third - MAKE A BUDGET!!!!!!!!

Among other things we were asked to think about how much of a monthly budget you think you need - want to live on for the long term. This has been hard for us personally to consider because we are not sure what our life style is going to be. Anyway, come up with a figure.

Take a years worth ie $10k a month would equal $120k, and put it in an account and live off that amount for the year. Don't fudge. After a year you will know how accurate your figure is and can adjust.

That is when you know how much you will want to put in long term annuities or some kind of long term investment which will net you the correct amount each month.

Ok smart money people - let's hear from you! Thank you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Please remember I am NOT - NOT any kind of a financial adviser and am NOT - NOT giving advice. Please do your own due diligence.

TheRainMaker: I have an uber wealthy friend who actually has a wealth management team of professionals that he has worked with for over 20 years. I've been invited to meet with them once I'm ready.

Point being, if you know any wealthy individuals, chances are they are working with professionals that they have a relationship with and trust. If at all possible... seek these people our for advice, may save you a lot of time trying to find all the right people... just my two cents

AbundantlyBlessed: Thanks, Hopes. I just purchased a new journal to put down the names of my CPA, Financial Advisor, etc., and their numbers. I'll take your lists and add to this journal so that I'll be READY!!!!!! GLORAAAYYY!!!!!!!

I have another journal which I call my "Blessings Journal" which lists the names of those ministries and persons I believe God wants to bless through me. (It's a growing list!

TraderSteve: I retired as an Investment Advisor, and was the owner of a Registered Investment Adviser firm for a number of years. I wrote a short paper on the difference between a brokerage and an RIA firm as both an educational document and marketing piece.

I was also a state representative for the Asset Protection Society for several years. You can visit their website at www.assetprotectionsociety.org for more information, including a very good educational section. There are some very good people working at retail brokerage firms, but you need to know where their legal allegiance lies. Above all, do your own due diligence. Steve

Sir Joseph: I think the mechanics of wealth retention and growth, albeit important, tend to be small by comparison to the mental side of sudden changes in a persons financial condition, ie:

1. "A fool and his money are soon parted". - Look at the net worth of loto winners and professional sports giants 5 years after the golden goose drops its egg. The golden egg often becomes a goose egg.

2. "The Fear of loss is emotionally twice as taxing as the joy of success". ... And the golden egg is where? ... Unfortunately the egg can become our owner if we allow the fear of going back to the hand to mouth days of financial scarcity over recognition that all earthly wealth vanishes with the lack of a beating heart.

Somewhere between foolish squandering or hording of wealth lies a vast landscape of happy, healthy, and giving activites resulting in the enjoyment of an abundant life. May we all navigate that landscape with full appreciation of the beauty around us. Sir Joseph

WRJCJ1: No one has mentioned this, so I figured I'de throw it in. It is certainly part of the post RV actions. We have discussed on this forum in the past how the profits from the RV would be taxed by the IRS. Well, I don't recall anyone pinning that down for sure so here it is. Proof Document, ( IRS Publication 525 for the tax year 2014 ).

On page 31 of that publication under title heading "Foreign Currency Transactions", I quote"

If you have a gain on a personal foreign currency transaction because of changes in exchange rate, you do not have to include that gain in your income unless it is more than $200. If the gain is more than $200, report it as a capital gain." So, that is the tax law as of tax year 2014.

What, if anything, the IRS changes that to for any year after tax year 2014 remains to be seen. Just thought I would pass that on in case anyone was still wondering about it. Smiles and Sunshine, Wayne

Hopesway: I am thinking we won't know for sure what our taxes are going to be on this unique investment until it happens. It sure would be nice if it was capital gains though!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I am still planning on %50 take home after all is said and done.

Maynard: If you look at the regs with the IRS, I highly doubt many people here will qualify for capital gains treatment on exchange. Although I am an attorney, tax law is NOT my field, but having reviewed the legislation and regs, I will say that I am planning for the worst - ordinary gains treatment.

As I said before, you all might want to consider AT LEAST consulting professionals who are bonded or have malpractice insurance so they are in a position to be responsible for the consequences of whatever it is they advise you to do. This is not the time for an internet quickie.

FWIW, I know my own limitations. I have already lawyered up and picked my financial guy, who was referred by a really good business firm. I am also considering paying a hefty sum for a very thorough application for private revenue ruling from the IRS. I don't think states do them, or I'd do that, too.

Just be smart. Plan on the tax scenario being freaking ugly. Hopefully, with the right guidance you can get yourselves in a position to be pleasant surprised or at least find a way to limit the bleeding. ;) Maynard

Hopesway: This is from a former "chat groupie" Hi Diane, Love the thoughts.

One thing I think is missing that I am going to insist everyone (including you and Chuck) do is see a good Insurance Agent. We need 1. Top of the line health insurance. 2. A Liability Umbrella Policy. Take Care. ***** aka PrivateDancer!

WRJCJ1: I want to make sure that everyone understands the post I put on this morning. I went to the IRS office in my area and got a physical copy of the Publication 525 for tax year 2014.

I have quoted word for word exactly what the publication says. Including all punctuation. Income from the exchange of foreign currency that exceeds $200 is reported as capital gains.

Please, make no mistake, that was the tax law for the tax year 2014. We are now in the tax year 2015 and that law may not apply. The IRS could very easily amend that law for tax year 2015 if the RV happens this year.

It is my opinion that the IRS would need to publish an amended publication 525 for tax year 2015 and we would want to have that amended publication in hand if the RV were to happen.

It would be unwise to assume that the 2014 publication was still the current law. Therefore, I would say that Maynard's and Hopesway's words of caution are valid. Smiles and Sunshine, Wayne

Maynard: Most excellent points, Wayne. And the ultimate decision about tax treatment is subject to rules and regs promulgated by the IRS. As an administrative agency, their discretion is broad and the rules for qualifying as capital gain treatment can change on a dime. There are arguments in this debate going both ways - that fact alone is something to be concerned about.

I mentioned looking into requesting a private letter ruling from the IRS. Their decision in that case is ONLY binding on that individual applicant, but at least it might get one some peace of mind. I have never done this and would never consider making the application without the help of an experienced professional in this area, but here's the IRS link for very general info

http://www.irs.gov/Tax-Exempt-Bonds/TEB-Private-Letter-Ruling:-Some-Basic-Concepts

Rogc: My Brother is a Tax preparer for H&R Block. THey did a test run on this and it also came out as long term Capitol Gains

Nahna: Exercise caution cashing and carrying large sums of cash with you. There are civil forfeiture laws that could permit authorities to seize your cash even in absence of a wrong doing charge. Then the burden of proof be placed upon yourself to prove it was not intended for terrorism or other illegal activity.

View the following cnn link: http://www.cnn.com/2015/01/21/us/asset-seizures/

Swann1: Maynard- my CPA said those IRS letters can take 6 months or more to get processed.

IMO, your best bet is a highly qualified CPA, and tax attorney to prepare your documents; i.e., LLC's, etc., promissory notes to kids - or whomever, means you can "loan" as much as you want, and then "forgive" the annual "gift" limit, thus avoiding them being taxed on a gift.

My CPA agrees that it is long-term capital gains, if held for one year + one day, and said the rules in place at the time of exchange would be applicable - I'm counting on the IQD holding Congressmen/women to avoid any increases!!! He also belives that any EO on tax increases would be challenged in Federal court, and not immediately applicable.

Remember - your income on a capital gain is not subject to monthly or quarterly reporting. You are entitled to go through the entire year that the gain occurs, and apply any and all legal deductions to your gain, and report/pay taxes at either April 15th or file an extension for reporting Oct 15th.

Maynard: Thanks, Swan. I'm aware of the time lag and that is discouraging. If your CPA turns out to be right, I will be deliriously happy. For me an extension for the 2015 tax year is a foregone conclusion. Maybe even late filing with penalties, considering what's at stake.

I have other tax professionals that feel that it will be ordinary income. But what distresses me is that we don't have a clear directive from anyone as to what our rightful obligations will be.

I just figure that, maybe the best I can do is create a paper trail to establish that I made diligent efforts to determine what my obligations are before submitting a tax return.

If reasonably honest people, including those with significant training, can't give you a definitive answer - there is something seriously wrong with the way the constitution authority of our government to raise revenue through taxes is being exercised.

All I really want is for somebody in government to man or woman up - just tell us what we have to do, so we don't have to guess and hire defense attorneys

Swann1: From what I've been told, the 'ordinary income liability' on currency applies to those individuals who receive a gain on money they bring back from foreign countries - whether they bought it here for travel, or brought it back from business or pleasure travel.

The difference for us is, that we bought it as an investment, just like land or other real estate, with the reasonable expectation of a profit at some time in the future.

in other words, it's the intent of the holder, and with our purchase documents, intent would be easy to prove.

Noeta: I have no information to back this up but my gut tells me that by the time this actually happens there will be a more definitive direction as to how this will be taxed. JMO

Swann1: Noeta- I think that's what obama has been trying to do for years, and those pesky congressmen/women just won't play ball....

IRS can't make up a new rule to suit 'someone'.... Congress has to be involved, and I don't see the GOP letting taxes be a topic for 2016.

Capital gains is the only thing in the rulebook that comes close, and my CPA said it's worth the fight - if there even is one.... btw... he and his partners are licensed in all 50 states, and are invested...

Swann1: the tax rules apply the same for everyone. the difference is the taxpayer's who have deductions, etc. anyone benefiting from this investment should make quality representation a priority.

Hopesway: I was talking to my friend and he said he is going to Tithe FIRST and THEN pay taxes. Just an FYI

Also! Another part of things that can be discussed is security. Do you just walk into the bank with however million dinar you have and plop it down on the counter and say, please exchange this for me.?

(I know you don't by the way) But what ARE the best ways to handle the physical exchange? I have heard so many thoughts on this from hiring off duty police officers to accompany you (good idea btw) to hiring a brinks truck to deliver it to the bank for you.

What is logical and wise? I suppose it would depend on how much you have. If you have 100k dinar it would be a lot less concerning than having multiple millions. Thanks for the input to come!!!!!!!!!

HOPESWAY: Let's say you hold 1 million dinar. (I am not asking by the way ;) ) Post RV it will be worth (hopefully) 3+ million dollars. Are you going to feel comfortable with that much money in your car and then walking it into a place of business and having it on your person while you wait your turn?

And I am not sure I would accept a check. When you take the check to the bank what will they do with it?

just being the devil's advocate here, there could be simple answers to all of it

Swann1: my CPA has already spoken to his contact at Wells Fargo - I guess you call them wealth managers or something- and I will use him after making an appointment. one thing I agree with, is don't make transactions at a teller window...

I would never mail my dinar to anyone or let it out of my hands, without a verifiable receipt that it's in my account. as for transporting it, i'll be "dressing down", and only take a few bills on the first visit, hidden in my underwear!!!!

I don't think you'd be a target, if you act 'normal', but that's a personal call. I have family in law enforcement, and they're invested, but I think I'd be ok on my own if I'm careful.....

Vinman33: I've been quietly waiting for someone to make this statement. To reiterate what swann1 said,

"THE IRS DOES NOT MAKE TAX LAWS. CONGRESS DOES."

And, as I've mentioned before... U.S. Constitution, Article 1, Section 9, Clause 3:

"No Bill of Attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed."

To summarize, a "Bill of Attainder" is a law that is targeted to "punish" (or "mal-affect," if you will), a certain individual or group. In other words, a tax law targeting currency exchangers (ie "dinarians"). Meaning, if they were to try to pass a law specific to the exchange of the IQD, it would be illegal. It would need to apply to ALL currency exchangers.

Second, an "ex post facto" law, literally means "after the fact." This means, for example, if on January 1 someone commits a crime that is punishable by a $1,000 fine, and then in February the law changes such that the fine is raised to $5,000, and the case is adjudicated (meaning, "resolved") in MARCH, the fine would be $1,000, NOT $5,000 because 'you cannot impose a harsher penalty if that penalty was put in place "after the fact" (ie. after the act was committed).'

The penalty that would be imposed, is the penalty that was the legal penalty in place at the time the act was committed. Why this may be important is, if you conduct your exchange and the tax rate is, say, 30%, but later (and before you file your taxes for that year), they RAISE the tax rate to 40%,

YOUR tax rate on that exchange SHOULD BE only 30%, because that was what the law said at the time you did the exchange. For the authorities to try to impose the 40% rate on you could (imho) easily be argued as the imposition of an ex post facto law, which is illegal.

As always... :D Seek competent, professionals in all these matters.

Dalawr3012: Vinmman23, I have to agree that they should not be able to do a post de facto law, but that has not stopped them in the past. For example, (and I know it is a controversial law but is used as an example here) a law was passed that all sex offenders from years back had to register.

It did not matter that the law was passed and enacted years after some had been convicted, they still had to register or face additional criminal proceedings. ( I am not agreeing or disagreeing, just showing you that the government does what it wants to regardless of the law.

Unitedrich: I can imagine that all of the financial professionals, tax attorneys, CPA's, etc., are going to be all over the place when this finally hits. My advice like Hopesway said is to figure you will lose half of your investment to whomever comes calling. Anything left after that is just a bonus into your account. I will do this because I would rather err on the side of caution. I have been audited before and it is not fun, or to put it bluntly it sucks!' Rich

Sailrat: Rich, I think you are correct. I do not have a staff of tax people standing by, but intend to use information from the members of this website to focus my plans. I plan to have the US gov take 50 - 55%.

Of course my plans date from 2012. Hopefully, this will be the year that I get to implement them.

Mic: I will pay 50% or what ever the max is to never have to worry about the IRS. I can then file for any refund of over payment. This gives me peace of mind. I've been invested for over 7 years and have never wavered from that decision. That decision just made it easier to accept any tax or RV rate that I was looking at once this happens.

Brichards513: I guess it is time for me to chime in as well and hopefully I can add something to the conversation. First I want to thanks Hopes for starting this thread - it is always good to give yourself a check-up from the neck-up when you are going to be dealing with issues that can and will have an enormous impact on your future.

I have to say that I agree with a number of the comments and suggestions that have been given. I definitely agree with TraderSteve and Maynard on the information that they are bringing.

One of the things that I wanted to find in the PD archives - but I don't have time right now to do it is there was a thread similar to this one from several years ago now - and a member by the name of ConnectwithScott had written extensively about the tax topic.

If my memory serves me correct - he was either a tax attorney or a CPA who was invested and he was trying to ascertain how this would play out with the IRS.

He HAD gone through the process of getting on opinion letter from the IRS regarding the treatment of our Dinar Investment. Based on what he had written and the response that he received from the IRS - he was pretty much certain that it would be treated as ordinary income.

That being said - I personally agree with the line of thinking that your tax liability is all based on the intent of your purchase. As I am sure - the VAST majority - if not the entire membership here at PD bought their dinar as a investment - NOT as a currency trader - but as a long term investor.

(And for many of us the phrase "Long Term" has taken on even greater significance since it has been YEARS & YEARS that we have been invested - I've held my dinar since 2007). Since it was our intent that this currency be held as an investment - then it is my hope that it will be treated as long term capital gains.

Another member who is a currency trader is GPCarter - and I am pretty sure that he feels certain that this will be treated as ordinary income as well. So to summarize - depending on whose perspective you believe - it can certainly go either way - again no one knows.

One of the other things that I wanted to add to this discussion is this: I would suggest that you make sure that you find a FULLY QUALIFIED financial planner to assist you with your future plans. A planner who is excellent in their field and is a master of their craft will be the quarterback of your financial team.

My suggestion would be to pick your planner first and then have THEM suggest possible candidates to assist with your legal concerns, your tax planning questions, and your accounting worries.

It would be in your best interest to have those additional professionals be people that your planner works well with and they have similar views on areas of concern with tax planning and mitigation, estate planning, wills, trusts, insurance, etc. I also want to echo the sentiments of Hopes chat buddy who suggested that you should seek out a competent professional in the insurance and annuities field.

Many people don't realize this - but life insurance proceeds transfer to the beneficiary TAX FREE - so there are many ways to leverage this advantage to your benefit when doing tax and estate planning. It affords you the opportunity to leave a significant legacy to your heirs tax free. (It isn't called Insurance and Investments for no reason....)

So as you can see - there are a plethora of topics and areas of concern when it comes to discussing financial matters. Being fully prepared and choosing the right TEAM of professionals to assist you in handling your affairs should be an objective of paramount importance.

And just for full disclosure - I have been in the financial services industry for the past 20 years. 18 years was spent specifically in the mortgage industry where I had exposure to the markets and financial concerns on a daily basis.

The past two years I have expanded the services that I provide to my clients to now include the fields of insurance and investments. I am currently mentoring with two financial planners so that when I have put in the time and learned the requisite knowledge - then I too will be a registered financial planner. The reason for my expansion into these areas was twofold.

First - because this has always been something that I wanted to do, and Second - because in my 18 year in the mortgage industry (where discussing the family finances was something that I did daily with my clients) - it was readily apparent to me that many, many, many people were NOT having any conversations with a competent financial professional - or they didn't know whom to talk to and so they were getting instructions that were not in their best interest.

To make matters worse (and again to echo what TraderSteve indicated in his earlier post) many people were putting their trust in the hands of people who were NOT acting in their best interest. Many folks thought that they had an "investment adviser" when they may have only had the person in their HR department who was the retirement plan administrator.

That prompted me to branch out into these areas so that I could do my best to assist in educating people on these important matters. I am a person who believes in educating his clients to that they can make the right decisions based on the proper information. One of the things that I tell every client of mine is this:

It's not necessarily how MUCH you earn - but how much YOU KEEP of what you earn that matters.

With the blessing that so many of us here at PD are going to experience (whether it is this month, or this quarter, or this year) the statement in RED above couldn't ring more true!

So that's my two cents worth. I hope this was helpful and that it made sense to you..... God Bless! B-rich

Dalawr3012: Dalawr For easier navigation I edited and pared down all this information. Thank you for bringing it. :) Hope

I have saved most of the info posted in one document. Here it is for those who missed it so you don't have to go research it again, It will take a few posts to get it all on here.

After it RV's What do I do Next:

I think many of us are going to be in the same boat after it RV's and after we stop jumping around and making fools of ourselves. Well, you maybe, I will be perfectly composed.

The boat I will be in will be the one going in circles unless I have some direction. I remember Millionday saying to MAKE A PLAN!!!!! Cause after it RV's you won't even be capable of putting on matching socks much less know what to do with your funny money.

SO! This is what I have done or plan on doing:

1. I have written down all pertinent phone numbers in a consolidated place, someplace that is not hard to find!!! i.e. I have all the names and numbers of all the people I will need to call as soon as I hear it RV's. I tried to pretend it is had just RV'd, what will I need to do? I tried to think it out, think about each step and try to problem solve before it happens.

2. Make lists, I have some different colored notebooks, one color for each subject.

3. I think we have all heard the advice given to new widows, widowers; wait at least a year before making any major life decisions. I am wondering if that would be good advice for us also. Depends on cash-in time-line also. Of course I am not waiting a year to get a new car .

4. I am learning whom I may need help from post RV, i.e. a financial advisor etc and how to find them.

5. I am going to learn as much as I can about Lottery Winners Syndrome because we have "been there done that", in a much smaller way, but we don't want to make the same mistakes twice.

6. Keep my mouth shut!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! We are not going to advertise to our town or relatives and/or friends who are not invested what just happened to our bank account! I have already closed out my facebook acct etc. This is just my personal comfort zone.

7. I am going to learn how to have a secure e-mail address etc and learn about ID Theft. My husband and I will not live in fear, but we will become educated.

Grizzy: IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY MOST OF THE CURRENCY EXCHANGES WILL BE DOING WIRE TRANSFERS DIRECTLY INTO YOUR ACCOUNT. SOME WILL GIVE YOU A LIMITED AMOUNT OF CASH.

TO COVER YOURSELF, FIRST AND ABOVE ALL SEE AND READ CAREFULLY WHAT STEVE POSTS AS HIS ADVICE!

THEN MAKE A VERY CALM CALL TO MY TEAM --MY ACCOUNTANT, LAWYER AND FINANCIAL PLANNER.

1) I WOULD CHECK IN ADVANCE WITH WHEREVER IT IS YOU PLAN TO CASH IN ABOUT THEIR RULES AND REGULATIONS.

2) HAVE ANY BANKING TRANSFER INFORMATION NEEDED PREARRANGED WITH YOUR BANK.

3) AND HAVE IT WITH YOU.

4) DO NOT GO ALONE

AND MOSTLY REMEMBER WHATEVER THE CASH IN AMOUNT IS THERE IS USUALLY NO FEE TO CASH IN (AT LEAST AT BANKS) BUT THERE WILL POSSIBLY BE A SPREAD BETWEEN THE RATE AND WHAT THE BANKS WILL BE PAYING YOU. JUST A FEW THOUGHTS I HAVE KEPT IN MIND. GOD BLESS GRIZZY

​WRJCJ1: I want to apologize to all PD members concerning my original post about IRS publication 525. Maynard has a very valid point and we stand as always with no absolute assurance as to how the IRS is going to treat this RV. I should have know better than to think that a very easy to understand tax law as stated in publication 525 was the answer.

After trying to digest IRC section 988 it becomes very apparent that a guy like me could never stand a cold chance in ****** interpreting tax code. I read an article once by a retired IRS agent turned tax attorney that stated in a sense that the common citizen has no way of ever understanding the tax code.

He stated that relying on tax attorneys, CPA's, and other financial experts was a shot in the dark at best. Calling the IRS with a question also has no assurance that the advise they give you ( if you are lucky enough to even get help ), will be correct.

And guess what, you are liable non the less and subject to what ever penalty the IRS wants to apply. The saddest part of this in my opinion is we the people allow our government to treat us this way. I believe in paying my fair share of the tax burden.

I do not believe that I should have to hire a tax attorney to make sure I do it right and even then not have a guarantee that it is right. Anyways members, sorry for the not so well thought out post about publication 525. Thanks Maynard for your research and chimeing in. Smiles and Sunshine,Wayne

Maynard: Your post was perfectly legit, Wayne. And I agree, the situation is really distressing. Unless the service comes right out and tells it like it is, or like it will be, I feel like we are being forced down the road of trying for the private letter ruling. TIme consuming, expensive and dubious at best.

I have a couple of contacts who've been with the IRS and I guess I'll ask them for some options. They probably won't know either. THanks for your input. Maynard

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